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	<title>Comments on: I smell something iffy.. or should that be fishy?</title>
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	<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/</link>
	<description>A grumpy scientist writes</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:44:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Stephen Brown</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-800</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-800</guid>
		<description>About the flavour of the placebo capsules (obviously not used in the Durham Year 11 trial/initiative/study or whatever we should call it.)

A previous trial (written up by Richardson http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/115/5/1360 ) quotes &quot;Placebo treatment consisted of olive oil capsules,which were carefully matched with the active treatment with respect to both appearance and flavor.&quot; 

Note the last word &#039;flavor&#039;.  As I am sure Dr Richardson would be accurate - she has published often on EFA research - Presumably something must have been included in the placebo to give the &#039;fishy taste&#039;

I note this was done in County Durham so presumably the officers know how to do RCTs and were, presumably, sufficently impressed by the results they saw in the children to consider offering the supplement to all Year 11 pupils.

Anyone going to the FTTB conference? I am sure Dr Portwood would enjoy answering questions on the trial!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the flavour of the placebo capsules (obviously not used in the Durham Year 11 trial/initiative/study or whatever we should call it.)</p>
<p>A previous trial (written up by Richardson <a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/115/5/1360" rel="nofollow">http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/115/5/1360</a> ) quotes &#8220;Placebo treatment consisted of olive oil capsules,which were carefully matched with the active treatment with respect to both appearance and flavor.&#8221; </p>
<p>Note the last word &#8216;flavor&#8217;.  As I am sure Dr Richardson would be accurate &#8211; she has published often on EFA research &#8211; Presumably something must have been included in the placebo to give the &#8216;fishy taste&#8217;</p>
<p>I note this was done in County Durham so presumably the officers know how to do RCTs and were, presumably, sufficently impressed by the results they saw in the children to consider offering the supplement to all Year 11 pupils.</p>
<p>Anyone going to the FTTB conference? I am sure Dr Portwood would enjoy answering questions on the trial!</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-799</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Aust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-799</guid>
		<description>If one were talking about actually &lt;b&gt;eating&lt;/b&gt; oily fish, then I guess the precise &quot;eco-friendliness&quot; would depend on what fish from what source.

Not sure about fish oils. They seem to be processed and enriched in some way, so it sounds like there is a lot of &quot;production processing&quot;, which would be energy-costly. Of course, a counter-argument might be that they can use bits of the fish that in normal eating would be thrown away. Equa$en do give some info on the process on their website, but I can&#039;t be bother to go and look. Perhaps someone else can check it out.

On the whole, though, I would imagine that promoting the actual &lt;b&gt;eating&lt;/b&gt; of oily fish would be more eco-friendly. But then, &quot;Pills for Ills&quot; seems to be the modern way.  I remember one of our neighbourhood middle-class mothers yakking on in the playground about how she was stuffing her two kids with fish oil capsules. &quot;Have you tried giving them fish?&quot; I asked. &quot;Oh, they won&#039;t touch fish&quot;, she said. Hmm... now whose fault is that? Children learn to like what their parents present to them as good to eat, in my experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one were talking about actually <b>eating</b> oily fish, then I guess the precise &#8220;eco-friendliness&#8221; would depend on what fish from what source.</p>
<p>Not sure about fish oils. They seem to be processed and enriched in some way, so it sounds like there is a lot of &#8220;production processing&#8221;, which would be energy-costly. Of course, a counter-argument might be that they can use bits of the fish that in normal eating would be thrown away. Equa$en do give some info on the process on their website, but I can&#8217;t be bother to go and look. Perhaps someone else can check it out.</p>
<p>On the whole, though, I would imagine that promoting the actual <b>eating</b> of oily fish would be more eco-friendly. But then, &#8220;Pills for Ills&#8221; seems to be the modern way.  I remember one of our neighbourhood middle-class mothers yakking on in the playground about how she was stuffing her two kids with fish oil capsules. &#8220;Have you tried giving them fish?&#8221; I asked. &#8220;Oh, they won&#8217;t touch fish&#8221;, she said. Hmm&#8230; now whose fault is that? Children learn to like what their parents present to them as good to eat, in my experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Nash</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-798</link>
		<dc:creator>Nash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-798</guid>
		<description>Is promoting Omega-3 fish oil eco friendly?  Our oceans are already being over fished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is promoting Omega-3 fish oil eco friendly?  Our oceans are already being over fished.</p>
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		<title>By: Svetlana Perstovich</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-795</link>
		<dc:creator>Svetlana Perstovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-795</guid>
		<description>I see that you hung about DC&#039;s blog today... The post about A.J.Clark attracted you.
OK!
I want to say to all of you, who are blabbing here, about A.J.Clark!
A.J. Clark DIDN&#039;T collaborate with quacks!!!!! He NEVER worked in quackery organization (sort of OfQuack!!!) !!!!! He was a HEAD OF PHARMACOLOGY CHAIR!!!!!! And he NEVER hid his honest name under pseudonyms!!! Never! -  even when quacks sued him and he lost a case!!! He HAD ORGANIZED his Chair, and he NEVER buried Chairs, where he worked and NEVER wrote obituaries in memory of those Chairs!!!

Have you understood me??!!!!

:(  :(  :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that you hung about DC&#8217;s blog today&#8230; The post about A.J.Clark attracted you.<br />
OK!<br />
I want to say to all of you, who are blabbing here, about A.J.Clark!<br />
A.J. Clark DIDN&#8217;T collaborate with quacks!!!!! He NEVER worked in quackery organization (sort of OfQuack!!!) !!!!! He was a HEAD OF PHARMACOLOGY CHAIR!!!!!! And he NEVER hid his honest name under pseudonyms!!! Never! &#8211;  even when quacks sued him and he lost a case!!! He HAD ORGANIZED his Chair, and he NEVER buried Chairs, where he worked and NEVER wrote obituaries in memory of those Chairs!!!</p>
<p>Have you understood me??!!!!</p>
<p>:(  :(  :(</p>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-793</link>
		<dc:creator>draust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-793</guid>
		<description>Ha ha ha..... nice spot, &lt;strong&gt;Kat&lt;/strong&gt;. 

It does have a touch of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.answers.com/topic/busman-s-holiday&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;busman&#039;s holiday&lt;/a&gt; feel, though that isn&#039;t the right idiom. Do you think that the lower you finish in the raffle, the more of Patrick&#039;s books you get to take home?

Re. &lt;strong&gt;jdc&#039;s coments&lt;/strong&gt; about the oil and what would be a better placebo, &lt;strong&gt;the Holfordwatch gang&lt;/strong&gt; suggested &quot;tinned tuna oil&quot;, or similar, tinned tuna having pretty minimal omega-3 levels.

The wider point is, I guess, that if you were running a major, randomized, blinded human placebo trial of your fish oil, then having a proper &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ACTIVEPLACEBO&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;active placebo&quot;&lt;/a&gt; would be a large part of making the experiments reliable. I wonder if the &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7618888.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Prof John Stein / Wellcome Trust incarcerated young offender fish oil trial&lt;/a&gt; is going to use a more sophisticated placebo than (say) olive oil?  I would hope so. The news stories said &quot;placebo trial&quot; but didn&#039;t mention what the placebo was going to be - though I would think that kind of info would have to have been in the original grant application and the Ethical Approval submissions, &lt;em&gt;inter alia&lt;/em&gt;.

Of course, Durham avoided this irksome sort of stuff by having no control group, let alone no placebo arm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha ha ha&#8230;.. nice spot, <strong>Kat</strong>. </p>
<p>It does have a touch of the <a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/busman-s-holiday" rel="nofollow">busman&#8217;s holiday</a> feel, though that isn&#8217;t the right idiom. Do you think that the lower you finish in the raffle, the more of Patrick&#8217;s books you get to take home?</p>
<p>Re. <strong>jdc&#8217;s coments</strong> about the oil and what would be a better placebo, <strong>the Holfordwatch gang</strong> suggested &#8220;tinned tuna oil&#8221;, or similar, tinned tuna having pretty minimal omega-3 levels.</p>
<p>The wider point is, I guess, that if you were running a major, randomized, blinded human placebo trial of your fish oil, then having a proper <a href="http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ACTIVEPLACEBO" rel="nofollow">&#8220;active placebo&#8221;</a> would be a large part of making the experiments reliable. I wonder if the <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7618888.stm" rel="nofollow">Prof John Stein / Wellcome Trust incarcerated young offender fish oil trial</a> is going to use a more sophisticated placebo than (say) olive oil?  I would hope so. The news stories said &#8220;placebo trial&#8221; but didn&#8217;t mention what the placebo was going to be &#8211; though I would think that kind of info would have to have been in the original grant application and the Ethical Approval submissions, <em>inter alia</em>.</p>
<p>Of course, Durham avoided this irksome sort of stuff by having no control group, let alone no placebo arm.</p>
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		<title>By: Kat</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>Kat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-792</guid>
		<description>Claire suggested free raffle tickets. Given the prizes, wouldn&#039;t you want to give the tickets back again?

TAKE A LOOK AT THESE FABULOUS PRIZES TO BE WON…

Consultation at the Brain Bio Clinic
Fresh Water 1000 filter system worth £250 
YorkTest Food Allergy Kit worth £250
2 Wholefood’s Market Vouchers, £150 each
Bio Care Voucher worth £100
Equazen Voucher worth £100
2 Doves Spa vouchers - Spa centres around UK
3 YorkTest Homocysteine Kits £75 each
2 100% Health 2 year membership worth £50 each
6 of Patrick&#039;s latest books ‘How to Quit + Food Glorious Food’ worth £30
Basket of Environ Skin Care products</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Claire suggested free raffle tickets. Given the prizes, wouldn&#8217;t you want to give the tickets back again?</p>
<p>TAKE A LOOK AT THESE FABULOUS PRIZES TO BE WON…</p>
<p>Consultation at the Brain Bio Clinic<br />
Fresh Water 1000 filter system worth £250<br />
YorkTest Food Allergy Kit worth £250<br />
2 Wholefood’s Market Vouchers, £150 each<br />
Bio Care Voucher worth £100<br />
Equazen Voucher worth £100<br />
2 Doves Spa vouchers &#8211; Spa centres around UK<br />
3 YorkTest Homocysteine Kits £75 each<br />
2 100% Health 2 year membership worth £50 each<br />
6 of Patrick&#8217;s latest books ‘How to Quit + Food Glorious Food’ worth £30<br />
Basket of Environ Skin Care products</p>
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		<title>By: jdc325</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-791</link>
		<dc:creator>jdc325</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-791</guid>
		<description>Re making fishy burps - is there something edible and fishy-smelling that can be used to make placebo capsules suitably odourous? I have a vague idea something like methyl or ethyl amine may do the trick. Diisopropyl amine, maybe? I&#039;m pretty sure these smell fishy, but I&#039;m not so sure whether they are edible!

Re EPA/DHA-free fish oil - apparently the Equazen process uses winterisation and molecular distillation to increase the relative amounts of Eicosapentaenoic Acid and Docosahexaenoic Acid. I assume that it would also be possible to manipulate the levels downwards. I guess if you started with a fish oil that was relatively low in EPA/DHA it would be easier to achieve a low EPA/DHA level. E.g., cod contains @150mg EPA/DHA per 100g whereas sardine contains about 1000mg per 100g [USDA].

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.equazen.com/gfx/ul/files/Equazen%20Process%20updated28-11-07.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PDF of the &#039;Equazen Process&#039;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re making fishy burps &#8211; is there something edible and fishy-smelling that can be used to make placebo capsules suitably odourous? I have a vague idea something like methyl or ethyl amine may do the trick. Diisopropyl amine, maybe? I&#8217;m pretty sure these smell fishy, but I&#8217;m not so sure whether they are edible!</p>
<p>Re EPA/DHA-free fish oil &#8211; apparently the Equazen process uses winterisation and molecular distillation to increase the relative amounts of Eicosapentaenoic Acid and Docosahexaenoic Acid. I assume that it would also be possible to manipulate the levels downwards. I guess if you started with a fish oil that was relatively low in EPA/DHA it would be easier to achieve a low EPA/DHA level. E.g., cod contains @150mg EPA/DHA per 100g whereas sardine contains about 1000mg per 100g [USDA].</p>
<p><a href="http://www.equazen.com/gfx/ul/files/Equazen%20Process%20updated28-11-07.pdf" rel="nofollow">PDF of the &#8216;Equazen Process&#8217;</a></p>
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		<title>By: maccruiskeen</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>maccruiskeen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-790</guid>
		<description>David Ford wrote to me on 13th November 2006 and stated, &quot;There have been no financial inducements from Equazen in cash or kind.&quot; 

He was also asked asked about inducements by reporters from BBC &quot;You and Yours&quot; and strenuously denied that any had been offered or taken.

I believe him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Ford wrote to me on 13th November 2006 and stated, &#8220;There have been no financial inducements from Equazen in cash or kind.&#8221; </p>
<p>He was also asked asked about inducements by reporters from BBC &#8220;You and Yours&#8221; and strenuously denied that any had been offered or taken.</p>
<p>I believe him.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-789</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-789</guid>
		<description>&quot;No formal fee but...&quot; [Dr Aust]

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foodforthebrain.org/content.asp?id_Content=1686&amp;id_Content_Parent_Override=1798&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;free raffle tickets?&quot;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No formal fee but&#8230;&#8221; [Dr Aust]</p>
<p><a href="http://www.foodforthebrain.org/content.asp?id_Content=1686&amp;id_Content_Parent_Override=1798" rel="nofollow">free raffle tickets?&#8221;</a></p>
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		<title>By: jonhw</title>
		<link>http://draust.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/i-smell-something-iffy-or-should-that-be-fishy/#comment-788</link>
		<dc:creator>jonhw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://draust.wordpress.com/?p=144#comment-788</guid>
		<description>Thanks DrAust.  I&#039;ve seen a FOIA response where Durham says - effectively - that they got no money from Equazen (though clearly they did get the pills free).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks DrAust.  I&#8217;ve seen a FOIA response where Durham says &#8211; effectively &#8211; that they got no money from Equazen (though clearly they did get the pills free).</p>
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